Chat log of Bridge Base Online session for vugraph37 starting at: Thu Aug 05 19:34:42 2004 Walddk2 (Broadcast): Our broadcast from Melbourne starting now. WA vs. ACT at 1 table, NSW vs. Victoria at the other beto: Hello, Welcome all timb: Allen-Fuller; Wawn-Hoffman play Polish Club style vugraph37: EW play forcing pass! vugraph37: we are starting with 23 & 24 and will have comparisons from brd 1 onwards vugraph37: ===================24 timb: West will opoen 1!S, promising 0-8 timb: any shape timb: East's pass promised 3+!S, as I recall vugraph37: east's pass was not alerted cascade: I am struggling to find the system cards - does anyone have the link timb: ah, perhaps they changed things vugraph37: go to the abf website click on anc and scroll down cascade: brilliant got it - thx vugraph37: i'll find the exact link afterthis hand vugraph37: pls tell us al timb: http://www.abf.com.au/events/anc/2004/systems.html timb: david hoffman is a thoughtfull declarer timb: taking D!K has made life easier. timb: !DK timb: +2 vugraph37: ===================1 vugraph37: the ANC webcam is on this table timb: East will open 1!C, promising 4+!H and 8-12p vugraph37: http://members.iinet.net.au/~mrdct/ cascade: 1!h will be a limited takeout cascade: maybe not limited - but the hand is here cascade: and 2NT a game try in hearts timb: 4!H is a make for EW; 2NT is a heart raise and E has a max cascade: a nice maximum too with those good controls timb: declarer will lose two clubs and a spade timb: luckily it is S who has !HQJ doubleton vugraph37: =======================2 cascade: this is a 1!H opening for East cascade: if I can read their system card timb: East passes to promise 13+p cascade: showing both minors cascade: nope too good timb: this is where this forcing pass style does less well vugraph37: hoffman consulting his defensive notes vugraph37: which he is allowed to have under the regs for this event cascade: any strong artificial opening (or pass) is subject to pre-emption timb: any thoughts on the EW system Wayne? timb: I think EW would do better playing Standard! cascade: Forcing Pass is fun to play timb: 20 years ago I supported the Forcing Pass experiment timb: now I think it bad for the game timb: - a sure sign of getting older cascade: we do not really know how good the methods are because they are legislated out of the game in many places and levels cascade: I played forcing pass for one event ... timb: and (having joined the fuddy-duddy club) think thats good as I hardly play now cascade: and then decided that it was too much work for something that I could not play often timb: Any thing but a spade now beats 2NT; W had to win !SQ cascade: a little odd to duck timb: I think FP makes bridge difficult to sell outside the elite level timb: I agree with your comment about the duck - he needed !S6-2 with north having the aces so when could it win? cascade: and it looks like 6-2 with the !s9 lead cascade: and the 1!s bid vugraph37: west revoked but noone saw timb: down two another way - good careful play by hoffman vugraph37: he pitched !S6 on the !H9 while holding the !H6 vugraph37: the bbo software doesn't allow revokes cascade: why does FP make bridge difficult to sell Tim? vugraph37: ======================3 cascade: Fred needs to fix that for vugraph ... timb: 2!D promised hearts and limited to 12p vugraph37: FP was one of the things that attracted me to the game 20 years ago timb: looks pretty flat cascade: Hoffman is my sort of partner ... cascade: partner twice showed preference for his hearts but he insisted on spades timb: The real advantage of FP is in the limited one level openings cascade: In a way FP is no more artificial than many of the things that are readily accepted by a majority of players vugraph37: ===================4 timb: the problem is that their opponents have to play one system when they deal and another when FP players deal cascade: i think that is a fallacy timb: which for me, now as a casual tournament player, is a disincentive to enter major tournaments timb: basically, I rather watch grass grow than play against these systems cascade: when they Pass (forcing) if they were playing a standard method you wouldnt be playing your system anyway timb: but I can never play my system in second seat when playing FP timb: whereas if a standard player passes I can cascade: that is the only seat ... cascade: but I bet that the FP players would give up the Fert if there was a way to do that cascade: I am sure that is not a big winner for them timb: system is a part of winning; knowing whether partner has teh values for his bid is better timb: particularly in competive auctions cascade: I enjoy playing against these different methods ... cascade: unfortunately I frequently play with partners who do not - so I get forced to go and sit at the other table timb: I can also play it after two or three passes timb: normally but in only one seat against FP vugraph37: =======================5 cascade: they dont appear to have anywhere on their card how they respond to a FP vugraph37: yes there was some controversy over that against ACT in the 1st RR vugraph37: they submitted a sup sheet but the abf didn't put it on the website vugraph37: the abf system card is not well-designed for HUM systems cascade: ok then the controversy is not their's cascade: many CCs are not vugraph37: the issue was the ACT pair wanted to play a HUM defence that they hadn't submitted timb: did they have a duty of care to insure it was correct on the website? interesting debate there! vugraph37: thomson-brightling timb: great result here for ACT NickF: any scores from the other match - 4-0 here to VIC. timb: down one here if he gets !Ds right cascade: 4!H looks makeable cascade: the defense cannot get their second club through lack of entry vugraph37: 7-6 ACT ->NickF: 7-6 act timb: Brightling ducked the !CK lead against 4!H and so made 10 tricks vugraph37: in the other match VIC lead NSW 4-0 vugraph37: =====================6 cascade: here comes a Fert vugraph37: just taking a quick drink between hands vugraph37: it's quite hot under the lights at this table cascade: Fert is short for Fertilizer bid - you throw it out there and see what grows timb: N-S will reach 4!H timb: 3!D a transfer to 3!H after North showed 17-18 no 5 suit cascade: EW are playing the FP system and we do not understand the NS auction cascade: makes sense now cascade: 4!C is an advanced cue for hearts cascade: which is a thoughtful bid when you have a maximum and a great fit timb: I'm sure Hoffman-Wawn will be glad this is the last match today; they will get very tired playing FP timb: pair vugraph37: =================7 timb: another simple 4!H to bid a guess or two maybe but should still make cascade: even if he misguesses the hearts he should make cascade: with the very favourable club lie timb: will simplify things if he plays low cascade: the Ace is plausible here cascade: then unblock the clubs and !HA and !cQ for a spade pitch cascade: bonjour Henri :-) ritong: bonjour a tous:) timb: 12 tricks now vugraph37: ================8 cascade: so ACT pull out to 10 in front ->NickF: 16-6 ACT timb: an easy 3NT for EW here cascade: This event is the ANC - Australian National Championships cascade: 1!c is any 11+ cascade: 1NT is just a weak NT I guess cascade: and then 2!c etc will be relays timb: and W will have shown 3244 shape timb: with 3!C cascade: I am guessing - wild stab here - 2!h showed two suits of the same rank ritong: ok now ->ritong: sure. sry to have got you in bother cascade: the play will be less interesting ritong: no, pls don t :) just had to fix 1/2 yellow pbs:) cascade: especially on this lead timb: looks like 10 tricks if you get the !Ds right - and there is no reason not to timb: here cascade: on a spade lead declarer might have been worried about 5-3 spades and possibly losing to the !dQ ritong: be back invisible cascade: and no danger if you get them wrong cascade: so we wait for the next board timb: I'd have cashed !DA first timb: to try and protect against !Ds 4-0 timb: and make sure of 9 tricks vugraph37: =========================9 timb: !DA and if North has !DQ1065, no problem; if south cross to a heart and lead a low !D cascade: that is 100% safety play except that I think East may have been lacking an entry cascade: can South duck and keep East out timb: another swing to ACT cascade: no !dK as entry timb: 3!D seems overweight cascade: how much do you like for your pre-empts vugraph37: claimed with beer card vugraph37: ======================10 timb: opening 3!D probably because he didn't want EW to play their system cascade: Welcome to Henri Schweitzer ritong: hi there:) ritong: hello wayne timb: hi henri - great to have you joining us ritong: nice to meet you tim ->cascade: have you got a score from the other match? cascade: yes I am about to announce cascade: Victoria 9 NSW 8 after 8 boards in the other match timb: This shows 3 hearts (typically) and about 3-8 according to the card timb: this is usually their worst spot so it's normally best to defend timb: a misunderstaning is on the way for NS cascade: this is typical Moscito style - 4-card majors but raise with only 3-card support cascade: 9-9 now Vic v NSW vugraph37: wawn thought 2NT was minors timb: NS have done well so far to duplicate the contract in the other room - will they get the same result? ritong: true, tim, values are thin & both rooms bid the game timb: West has to win and shift to a diamond cascade: this is an odd auction though timb: down one timb: or two cascade: if 2nt is natural - i suppose 3!c is puppet stayman timb: no play now timb: 12 to WA ritong: i leave it up to you to talk about declarer's informations as this system is mysterious to me :) cascade: so 2-off now vugraph37: ==========================11 timb: EW can make 3!H, NS 4!C ritong: closed room reached a very decent game contract, depending of the trump king location on the surface cascade: 1!s Fert 0-8 timb: promise 0-8 any shape ritong: great:) cascade: you like this method Henri? ritong: erm...maybe i don t learn it today cascade: 2NT looks like Lebensohl timb: good contract - but unlucky timb: down two timb: ugly - down 3 timb: sounds like a bidding war ritong: we would prefer to know the nature of the weapons, wud be more interesting, maybe:) timb: 3 to WA to take the lead 22-21 if E scores !CK timb: back to down one vugraph37: ===================12 cascade: Pass will be forcing here - showing 13+ ritong: well, let s start some effort :) pass = 13+ any, 1!s = 0/8 any, right? timb: hoffers will bid 1!S promising long spades or a 3-suiter(ish) short in !S ritong: for ew , i mean:) vugraph37: spot on henri ritong: heh cascade: http://www.abf.com.au/events/anc/2004/systems.html timb: 1!C 8-12 with 4+!H, 1!D same with 4+!S and less than 4!H vugraph37: east has shown his exact shape cascade: Which is hardly the ideal for declarer ritong: so is a good thing he ends as the dummy ritong: oops ritong: take it back! cascade: you can't take it back ;-) vugraph37: no undo button for commentators ritong: mamma mia cascade: Still 9-9 Vic vs NSW cascade: spade plays were hopeful after Hoffman's 1!s cascade: now he has a nervous diamond finesse cascade: and club finesse cascade: but all went well vugraph37: =========================13 cascade: claim was corrected to making 3 timb: 6!D bid in other room. I'd bet Hoffman will open 2!D multi timb: he's a very active bidder ritong: good anticipation, tim, is not obvious cascade: double shows a great hand i guess vugraph37: it kind of is in this part of the world ritong: disappointing dummy, in a way ritong: too much goodies cascade: how do you bid over a multi ritong: have no convincing suggestion cascade: what is the likely meaning of the double Tim? vugraph37: director called ritong: ah, in general vugraph37: claimed on !S finesse but didn't mention drawing trumps ritong: 2!h/!s = shortness vugraph37: NS trying to get an extra trick vugraph37: director on the webcam now ritong: like 2!h/!s natural opening double timb: he gets 13 imps or 13 imps vugraph37: http://members.iinet.net.au/~mrdct/ cascade: crucial director's decision then vugraph37: hoffman saying he'd duck the !S and then get a ruff when declarer runs !Ds vugraph37: director reserving his ruling ritong: i like this type of argue as much as their system... cascade: and he would if declarer didnt draw trumps vugraph37: ====================14 timb: The Davids (Wawn and Hoffman) have been working hard on their system. They have had great success on the local Canberra ... timb: scene this year cascade: 1!s is the FERT cascade: 2!h will be constructive ritong: fert = fertilizer, this i know:) cascade: 0-8 Henri cascade: FERT = 0-8 any cascade: usually fairly balanced vugraph37: 2nt = 6-8 3!H cascade: and stands for Fertilizer bid timb: looks like a partscore swing to WA cascade: that was a good guess vugraph37: ===================15 ritong: very possible swing here ->NickF: score check. act 34-26 ritong: as 4!s makes without wizardry, i think cascade: yes cascade: just looks like normal careful play to make 4!s vugraph37: director has come back and made his ruling on the earlier claim - 12 tricks timb: 4S -1 in other room timb: X'd of course ritong: missed opportunity, then cascade: yes cascade: I am surprised that south does not raise ritong: that is the problem for poor lost commentators ( & spectators!) when systems are that exotic cascade: NSW 25 Victoria 25 ritong: well, enough of that ritong: is a long debate ritong: let s just say it is not very BBOtic in a "show" sense vugraph37: 200 people are choosing to watch it so it must be interesting to them at least ritong: 200 is a low rate, in fact vugraph37: i had many people messaging me this week asking when the FP woudl be on' timb: I'm only watching it because I support the ACT vugraph37: we are covering two matched ritong: yes, sure i understand my words were ambiguous ritong: i don t whine about broadcasting that match:) vugraph37: =====================16 timb: systems are at http://www.abf.com.au/events/anc/2004/systems.html timb: 8-12, 4+!S not 4+!H timb: may have a longer minor cascade: 1!d shows 4+ spades and 9-12 hcp timb: sorry 9-12 cascade: 8-12 i though 8 was covered in the Fert cascade: you are right Tim their card says both 8-12 for the limited openings and 0-8 any for the Fert timb: 13 to WA (rats) vugraph37: each-way bet cascade: NSW 37 Victoria 25 now vugraph37: boo vugraph37: ===================17 cascade: Fuller has down graded here 1!h shows 8-12 with minor(s) cascade: 1!s is an invitational relay vugraph37: little does he know his !HK is a good card timb: 1!S was an invitational relay cascade: what did the late alert show cascade: thx cascade: NSW 38 Victoria 31 after 17 boards vugraph37: ========================18 vugraph37: =====================19 cascade: WA are leading this event from 2nd Victoria 3rd NSW and 4th ACT cascade: including this round there are three rounds to go and these top four teams are effectively playing a round-robin among ... cascade: themselves cascade: 5th places South Australia have a chance as they play the bottom three teams in the final three rounds vugraph37: BBO are covering all of these matches timb: looks like a tied board timb: cash !CA and wait? timb: oops timb: now hoffman has to guess whether to play for !HK onside or !CA onside timb: we can get this right though vugraph37: hoffers in deep thought timb: must play draw trumps then use !SQ to throw a heart vugraph37: still in the tank ritong: yes, has to place himself in fuller's seat timb: some tough choices for David - down one. ritong: and try to work out why !s king, why not !c, and all that cascade: not sure why he didnt play two rounds of trumps vugraph37: =======================20 cascade: well Passed Out won't be happening here cascade: 1!d shows 8-12 and four or more spades timb: 8-12 4+!S not 4!H could have a longer minor cascade: Wawn has a reasonable hand over 2!s - he could have been missing out on something with Hoffman unable to bid over 2!s timb: good card timb: Fuller has to lose 3!Ds now cascade: !c9!!!! timb: seems odd vugraph37: ===================Toilet Break vugraph37: =====================21 cascade: NSW 38 Victoria 31 vugraph37: 2 boards to go here cascade: not sure I agree with the director's ruling ... cascade: if he didnt say he was drawing trumps then he might not cascade: and Hoffman could have ruffed a diamond cascade: Pass is 13+ cascade: and 1!c is 11+ cascade: Allen appears to be relaying cascade: might be symmetric relays timb: 2425 shape timb: 2452 shape cascade: as this sequence would show exactly what Fuller has in my brand of symmetric timb: down one on a low spade lead cascade: declarer just has to hope for a favourable spade break cascade: since he has to lose the lead cascade: tough for Hoffman now perhaps ritong: the !s jack is not enlightening, tho cascade: if !sJ was singleton then he has to switch cascade: and declarer could have five spades ... cascade: as he has only shown 11+ hcp cascade: Allen made no natural bids so Hoffman has very little to go on timb: not easy but hard to see what else one can do cascade: i suppose 3NT was natural timb: making 3 ritong: that.. cascade: Someone has suggested that a Smith Echo might have helped NS ritong: what about a good ol' !s queen cascade: Smith Echo is a high low in the first suit that declarer plays to tell partner that you liked his opening lead ritong: + some smithies:) cascade: !sQ can be singleton too vugraph37: ==================22 vugraph37: last hand now cascade: and North underleading wouldnt be any good either vugraph37: thanks for coming everyone. we restart in about 12 hours from now with the final two rounds of the qualifying phase cascade: thx Dave - Dave does an excellent job as our vugraph operator onsite cascade: we need operators as without them we have no vugraph cascade: Another 13+ pass vugraph37: we have 8 operators for this event - all doing a great job cascade: and another "wonder bid" ritong: merci a vous et a eux, dave:) cascade: 2!s maybe a relay response and 2NT a further relay vugraph37: west has shown his exact shape vugraph37: 2nt was the relay i think timb: thx everyone cascade: so 1 IMP to ACT to finish up cascade: thx Tim cascade: merci Henri cascade: bye thx :-) vugraph37: i'll just wait until scores are agreed b4 i close vugraph37: ok scores ok - see you all tomorrow